Ratchet Roundtable

What’s Ratchet About Thriving?

• Dr. Kia DH • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this episode, Aaron and Dr. Kia talk about the podcast’s origins, the Bridge to Thriving framework, and why a podcast about thriving centers ratchetness.

Read this episode's transcript here.

Learn more about Dr. Kia:

Learn more about Aaron:

Explore the Bridge to Thriving Framework: https://drkiadh.com/thriving-framework

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Dr. Kia DH:

Communities are supporting each other and helping each other get three, get free and thrive. Get three, get friving.

Aaron Grayson:

Get three, get friving.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah.

Aaron Grayson:

Hi, I'm Aaron.

Dr. Kia DH:

And I'm Dr. Kia and this is the Ratchet Roundtable Podcast.

Aaron Grayson:

Where we explore the defiant, irreverent, unapologetic ways that everyday folks get free.

Dr. Kia DH:

And thrive. This podcast is about how people can use ratchetness as a technology for thriving and liberation.

Aaron Grayson:

This is born out of many, many conversations we've had, both thinking about ratchet within our own dynamic. And you'll see some moments I think on the podcast, where like, it's like a it's like a fix your face moment, and we'll get into respectability later. But um [laughter].

Dr. Kia DH:

There are journeys.

Aaron Grayson:

There are absolutely. Yes, there are journeys. That's a great way of putting it. But then also the ways that seeing ratchet externally from us can really, to your point, be a technology for thriving, for getting free. Because these are, as they call them, unprecedented times and I think unprecedented times call for ratchet measures. So, which we've seen plenty of on local levels on, you know, defying authority, authoritarianism. You know.

Dr. Kia DH:

You saw the YN's stole a tank.

Aaron Grayson:

They got into that tank. Yes! Like the YN's stole a tank in Memphis. Ratchet, right? Like and that is, that is required for us to get free. Like us being within a compliant box is not going to do it. It's not going to do it for us. It's not going to do it for any other, any other species on this planet. It's not going to do it for the people that we love. Like thinking about these things I think is a requirement for the futures that we we want to build. So that's another, that's another big aspect of why this? Why this? Why Ratchet Roundtable?

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes. When we first started thinking about this podcast and imagining it, it was grounded in conversations we were having about living and trying to figure out how to thrive and where we were seeing models, and one of those models is actually out of my research. So we decided to take these conversations online and build out a podcast that's about how people use ratchetness as a technology for thriving and liberation. My Bridge to Thriving framework is grounded in research, right, on thriving and flourishing and well-being and human development and in a lot of ways reflects that research. However, when we center people who have been pushed to society's margins, we start to see these ratchet ways of being. So in order to thrive, there's defiance. In order to thrive, there's development of critical consciousness. And it's called a Bridge to Thriving framework because it lives in this both/and space where it recognizes that when you're marginalized, there's a lot conspiring against you and against your thriving. And our communities, whether they be Black or Indigenous or queer and/or women and so on. Our communities have not only imagined beyond their current conditions to create increased opportunities for thriving, either for themselves or for the future communities, and they have pulled energy back. So we can spend a lot of energy on survival. We can spend a lot of energy on reacting and responding and we do have to spend some energy on that. We have to intervene. And the more we've created coalition, the more we've created common purpose and community, the more energy we've pulled back for designing for the world we actually want to see. And so the first dimension is community. And of course, that's like what we represent to each other as well. Aaron, do you want to say anything about community and thriving?

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah, I mean, because we've been, we've been friends since the beginning of 2019, and were introduced through a mutual friend and immediately were we immediately hit it off, but also we're like, how do we get free? Like we here, we Black, we queer. How do we get free? How do we and not only from, I mean, not only from the people that you've introduced me to in terms of their research, but also through your research, it's helped me kind of understand okay there are, there are models, excuse me. There are aspects of thriving. And one of the things that we're hoping to talk about is some of those models that we just talked about in our everyday whether it's folks getting ratchet up in their government's parliaments, whether it's, you know, folks that are instigating really beautiful community based change on the ground, in their in their local environments, etc. And then also just like what we mean to each other in this pandemicene like it is, it's, I think, yeah, that's all I got to say for now. But yeah, community definitely resonating heavily with me is one of those aspects of thriving.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah, and we've definitely anchored each other through some really hard times and then brought each other into community with other folks and also used, as you said, examples from other from outside of our world, of ways that communities are supporting each other and helping each other get three, get free, and thrive. Get three. Get friving.

Aaron Grayson:

Get three, get friving.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, so there's the piece that's about us—the we—but then there's the piece that's about people, individually, and selfhood, specifically: you know, the sort of coming home to yourself, the anchoring into your true, authentic identity. So when we're thriving, we're often sort of unapologetically and in a holistic way in this work of being and becoming at the same time. And the more people have an integrated identity, the more people are anchored into themselves, the more likely they are to be able to thrive. That has a that has an effect on community as well. So yeah, selfhood has a relationship to community because the more that we are able to self-actualize and be authentically in our sense of self, in our purpose and our path, the more likely we are to be able to contribute to a healthy community, and the more likely the community is to reflect back to us an encouragement of, you know, us being and existing together. Okay, what do you want to say about selfhood?

Aaron Grayson:

Girl, listen. I'm thinking about thinking about a couple things. One, just the conversations we've had around being in corporatized spaces, the ways that we can't always. Either we are not always allowed to be free in the ways that honor the selfhood that we embody and that also who we're trying to become outside of a position, right outside of being, outside of careerist aspirations, shall we say. And the ways that, you know, we've talked about showing up with our full authenticity has often times been demonized. It hasn't been welcomed. It's been met with, it's been met with something other than embracing. And having to, I think, particularly as like neurospicy people, having to navigate like, damn, like all right. You know, this place says, "Be you. We're going to honor, you know, we're going to honor all of you. This is the best place to work for everybody," right? And when we're like, "Okay well here I am. This is your mission? Breathing life into it. Oh, you don't want me to do that? You want me to comply. Got it." Doesn't sound like selfhood, but eventually, you know, I think us having our own, our own journeys about learning what it is in these spaces that don't always welcome selfhood has been, it's been a enlightning to say the least, so.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah and actually, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because in a lot of ways, thriving is aspirational. So we know this... and my framework is a both/and framework and I was going to talk about that a little bit later... we know that we're in a context where people are not only not able to thrive at all times, but have forces acting, on purpose, against their thriving. Constantly. And that is where a firm sense of your own value, your inherent, intrinsic dignity and value can protect you. And we know that developing that and maintaining that requires a community that sees you authentically and that sort of reflects you back to yourself in an asset-based way. So when we're in these workplaces that hate us, want to make us small, if we're going to survive those, it's often because we have people, either there or outside of there, who are holding us up and helping us find the resilience to stick with it or to keep moving forward. And that's not good enough forever, right? So part of the aspiration is to say we can identify these things as challenges and dream beyond them, yeah, and design beyond them, right?

Aaron Grayson:

Which is exactly what these institutions, many of them, don't want you to do.

Dr. Kia DH:

For a whole host of reasons.

Aaron Grayson:

Yep, yep.

Dr. Kia DH:

Well, they don't and that, you know.

Aaron Grayson:

We could be talking forever about.

Dr. Kia DH:

I know we can talk about this forever. But this actually is good, because this, that is tied in a lot of ways to capitalism and I think where people get lost in the concept of abundance. So the third framework dimension is abundance and that's not actually about amassing a lot of financial wealth. A lot of people think abundance, and it's like oh, I've got my money, and it's a very individualistic and kind of extractive way of engaging in the world. When we talk about abundance tied to thriving, certainly there's a piece of it that's about sufficiency, which is you are resourced, right? And abundance is so much bigger than that. It is imagination, it's possibility, it's expansiveness. And when we talk about ratchetness, we're in the space of imagination. We're in the space of refusal. We're in the space of truth-telling. Even the truth that people want to like sweep under the rug, they want to hide from. They want to, you know, keep out of view. So abundance in the context of thriving is actually, I think, one of the best places to anchor into it is to think about how little kids move through and understand and imagine the world. And the other place where abundance I think is most easily located is in kind of queer creative and imaginative spaces, especially Black and Indigenous queer creative and imaginative spaces. And that's the abundance we're talking about with thriving.

Aaron Grayson:

A clip I saw on Instagram was of these dancers, presumably, of like, some kind of dance troupe. They have, like some kind of toddler that they were kind of like, there was music and they were like, dancing to what the toddler was doing. You may have sent it to me.

Dr. Kia DH:

Or you may have sent it to me.

Aaron Grayson:

Did you send this to me? Yeah. Okay, okay word and how, you know.

Dr. Kia DH:

They're mimicking everything the toddler does.

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah. Whatever the toddler is doing if he's like okay I'm wiggling my butt up in the air then they're all down on fours like wiggling my butt in the air and like, you know, kind of like this, you know, when he gets up and starts to run kind of, you know, like off kilter. They're they're mimicking those movements because there's a freedom in them that I saw that was about that abundance. Like I'm going to take up the space I'm going to take up, because that's all I know, you know, and I think there's something about the ways that over time we get kind of fit into these neat little boxes that that restrict our abundance and our ability, I mean, I was about to say simply be but I know you're going to get to that in a little bit. But just thinking about okay like I want to, I want to jam like this. I want to, I want to move my body like this. I think there's a, there's a reclaiming that I was thinking about with regards to that, that you know, some of our some of our youngest can some... can be some of our biggest teachers type-beat and it looks like it was for the for the dance troupe, so.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes, I think there's, there is something really powerful about turn... having all of the ability and mastery and agency tied to being older and letting a young person be the guide or the teacher or the model, and really privileging and prioritizing their wisdom and their guidance. That actually... I think if we could do that as a society, I think we'd heal a lot and we'd be setting the stage for a much more vibrant, thriving future. So much.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes.

Dr. Kia DH:

We were talking about this just yesterday, that so much of the pain that's being externalized, that's we're being subjected to right now is tied to a failure to be accountable to children and a failure to let children be accountable in safe ways, as learners, as developing humans, instead of being punitive towards young people when they make mistakes. And there's... this is going to, this ties into the respectability conversation which is related to ratchetness later, yeah, we won't belabor it. There's so much more.

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah yeah yeah.

Dr. Kia DH:

The fourth dimension is pleasure. And I feel like you touched on that with the dance class. And you know, not just pleasure in the sense of, you know, play and joyfulness, and whether that means like listening to music or making art or being out in nature or whatever, but also pleasure that is stigmatized and punished. So when we center communities that are cast to the margins, we allow for the full sort of expression of impossibility of, you know, same gender love, and you know the fact that fat people have sex and orgasms, and you know that sort of thing. So it's pleasure in the broadest sense, in the most dynamic sense. When, if you think about that, when a person is not allowed to be their full self, then they're not thriving, right?

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah.

Dr. Kia DH:

So there's this way that we need to be our full selves, but in particular, again, there's this wisdom in the ways we were before we were constrained by society to make ourselves small.

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah.

Dr. Kia DH:

And so play is a technology of thriving, and play is a technology of liberation. And so it's a key piece of the pleasure dimension.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm thinking about the ways that, I'm thinking about everything from enjoying nature as as, as a source of pleasure, and thinking about the ways that our national parks have been de

Dr. Kia DH:

Funded?

Aaron Grayson:

Defunded. They've been, they've been stripped of resources, which really allows people to. Because going back to the capitalism piece. There's a lot of ways you can get to a national park for free. I haven't been to a national park in a long time. I think that but they make it really accessible, generally, for people to enjoy and experience pleasure that is right here, like that nature just, you know, it was like, here you go. And I even think about like on Instagram because, you know, I'll be I'll be on social media. We be on social media. We be sharing things with each other. But I don't know if I shared with you the, there's a clip of, like, a bear that was just sitting, I think like next to like the little water

Dr. Kia DH:

Gazing out on a lake.

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah, like, so also thinking about the ways that like other animals experience pleasure and the pleasure is something that should be afforded to all of us. So yeah, everything from nature to kink communities and the ways that, you know, people exploring their sexuality and the ways that they get free, from that standpoint, are policed. The ways that certain bodies are policed. The ways that feminine bodies are policed over, over social media. Female bodies, I guess, more specifically. But yeah, I love that that's like a call out. It's like how do we, how do we increase our our access to pleasure as a as a fundamental thing of thriving?

Dr. Kia DH:

I'm glad that you mentioned kink because I think in that, in that ecosystem, you have a combination of certainly pursuing pleasure, but also often as a source of healing. And so that brings us to the next dimension, which is relief. And also being in nature, we have scientific evidence that being out in open green space is good for you at a cellular, mitochondrial level, right? Like this is a healing thing that you can do. So when we acknowledge that there are... I mean, there is going to be pain and difficulty in life, no matter what. And there is so much that's being manufactured, you know, in the interests of greed and extraction and just I think that's a function of people being so disconnected from their spirits and hating themselves so much that they're just pushing that pain out into the world. So, relief is critical because people need places and spaces and conditions and contexts where they can put stuff down. Be free from stressors and difficulties. Come to understand who they are more clearly because there's so much that gets in the way of that. That's the, that's the fifth dimension. And then back to the bear and"simply being."

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah.

Dr. Kia DH:

This actually is a, this is a, this lets us kind of forecast to one of our guests, which is Bayo Akomolafe. Talking about how one of the things that gets in the way of us as humans is this false idea that we're not of nature, that we're not animals, that we're not... that we are somehow better or different or separate from the world.

Aaron Grayson:

The world, yup, yup.

Dr. Kia DH:

You know in some special way. Which we're not. And I was thinking about the bear sitting by the water, sort of existing and gazing out and having a moment of stillness and full exist... sort of embodied existence.

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah.

Dr. Kia DH:

And when we, when I, in my research, in just popular discourse, when people talk about what they're dreaming about and casting toward in relationship to what's difficult, they're often talking about wanting to be able to"simply be." To just exist in the fullness of who they are without somebody coming in and being like, you're doing that wrong, or you're not supposed to be that or da da da da da. And so, simply being is the sixth dimension of the thriving framework, both because it can feel like thriving in a moment and because it's something for us to design toward the conditions where more and more people can exist in their fullness. That's why. That's why thriving and ratchetness are connected. Because without ratchetness, thriving is probably not possible in this current world, in these current conditions. And we're seeing it all over the planet. Movement all over the planet.

Aaron Grayson:

Absolutely. I also want to add that briefly that being ratchet requires risk. There's no there's no risk free way to be ratchet, I mean, and also that in the United States in particular, being ratchet is a politic that has been... We have to acknowledge that Black women have always moved ratchet forward, right? We're going to get into the scholarship and just, you know, who's

Dr. Kia DH:

In our article.

Aaron Grayson:

In the article, yep. But what comes to mind in terms of just real life examples of thinking about, I'm thinking about Harriet Tubman, I'm thinking about the Combahee River Collective and Bernice Johnson Reagon and just the ways that they were being defiant, to your point, with regards to the moment to create spaciousness, not only for themselves but also for their communities. So yeah, I'm hoping to get more into that too.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes, yes. And we see it in blues. We see it across multiple generations, absolutely. And we do get into that, we're hoping to have some of the people who have really dug into this on the podcast as well. Just to talk about this. I mean Doechii, right? Megan Thee Stallion, right? Beyoncé. Like we have, these ways that Black women have anchored a deployment of ratchetness. Tamar Braxton.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes.

Dr. Kia DH:

Right?

Aaron Grayson:

Yes.

Dr. Kia DH:

Deployment of ratchetness that has been liberatory in some ways. Empowering in some ways. And a blueprint, right?

Aaron Grayson:

Yes.

Dr. Kia DH:

Or blueprints, right? Yeah.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Kia DH:

So we would like to speak with Therí Pickens, Bettina Love, Brittney Cooper, Robin Boylorn, Nikki Lane, Stephanie Toliver, André Brock Jr., Aria Halliday, Ashley Payne. You know Teresa Irene Gonzales, Nicole West. We would speak with Katrina Overby, Gheni Platenberg. These are the folks who are really bringing this stuff to life. Mariah Johnson, and there's so many others. So, you know, if we could, we would absolutely welcome these brilliant scholars. We would also love to speak to Doechii.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes, Doechii, we have, oh my god.

Dr. Kia DH:

Megan Thee Stallion, please.

Aaron Grayson:

Cardi B.

Dr. Kia DH:

Cardi B, please. Beyoncé, please. Yeah.

Aaron Grayson:

GloRilla, come on.

Dr. Kia DH:

And Miss Piggy.

Aaron Grayson:

Yes, yes, yes. Oh my god a thousand percent. L.H. Stallings, yes. Oh, I mean, adrienne maree brown.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes.

Aaron Grayson:

Alexis Pauline Gumbs.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes.

Aaron Grayson:

There's a, there's a...

Dr. Kia DH:

Walidah Imarisha

Aaron Grayson:

Yeah, yes, yes. Mariame Kaba.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yes.

Aaron Grayson:

I'm thinking, I mean and, you know, of course like Black and Brown women period, right? And I'm even thinking about, you know, because I think there's an aspect of the relief that you're talking about and how we do that in community that are really going to be important for the fellas. I'm thinking about Joél Leon. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about musicians. I'm thinking about Serpentwithfeet. I think I might have sent you his album. I'm thinking about DESTIN CONRAD. I'm thinking about, and then also the the imagined, the imagined conversation, conversations we would have with people. What would it be like to like if Luther was still around, what would it be like to talk to Luther Vandross, right?

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah, James Baldwin.

Aaron Grayson:

Or James Baldwin, right? Langston Hughes, what would it look like to talk to these people who have really thought deeply about an imagined world that they didn't necessarily, and I think that's that's part of it, right? We're always imagining worlds that we're not necessarily going to be able necessarily going to be able to reap the full, the full fruits from, you know. But have also, we got to name their their their contribution, their contributions both past and continued. But.

Dr. Kia DH:

I'm glad that you mentioned men because we do have these really beautiful conversations with Tez Files and Ed Brockenbrough where we touch on a lot of this like the thriving in real time, moments of thriving in real time. And what we're imagining for the future through the lens of what it's like as men to be in this world, as Black men to be in this world. We talk a little bit about abolition. We talk about selfhood with Angel Acosta. You know, we've got some dope. Oh, we talk about rasquache.

Aaron Grayson:

Rasquache with Dr. José. Who I think is non-binary but grew up in Latino boyhood, right? What does that look like? You know? Yeah, I'm excited about these conversations. Absolutely.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yeah, it's dope ass season. Ultimately, we just really want to invite people to imagine possibility and be inspired by the models that already exist. So, you know, because I think that that can be a source of profound hope and energy. Times are fucked up. We have to fight. We have to fight for ourselves but we also really have to fight for our children and a future, right? And a future worth having. So we need those models. We need to be imaginative together. We need to have this space where we're being abundant, you know. And re, refueling each other, refueling our spirits, feeling affirmed, feeling anchored, so that we can keep it up because it's worth it. We're worth it. So conversations, models, an article where we're going to dig much more deeply into ratchetness as a phenomenon, as a concept and as a methodology. And yeah, probably some face journeys and some shenanigans and some foolishness.

Aaron Grayson:

Mhmm. They will all ensue. Excited. I'm excited, really.

Dr. Kia DH:

Yay. So that's it. That's Ratchet Roundtable. Thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoy season one and everything that's to come.

Aaron Grayson:

Absolutely thanks for tuning in.

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Aaron Grayson

Host
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Dr. Kia DH

Host